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JVGFanatic
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 275
Location: Portland (the westardly one)
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Posted: Mar Thu 03, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: Does Dai Senryaku VII Cheat
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This topic is inspired by one I've been posting on at gamefaqs. It actually diverged off into a "even chess programs cheat" subject that I found very amusing.
Anyway, the question is: does the AI in Dai Senryaku VII cheat? So far we've blasted two suppositions:
- It was proposed that units cost less for the AI to build than they do for the player to build. This has been proven (to the best of my abilities) untrue. I played ten games to turn 2. Four of the games were Easy AI, Three were Normal AI, and Three were Hard AI. On turn two I switch control of the CPU over to myself and examined the units that were created and the amount of funds available. In no instance did the value of units excede the amount spent on them.
- It has been proposed that fog of war does not work for the computer. I don't know of a good way to test this adequately but after hundreds of games I have convinced myself anyway that the computer is susceptible to the effects of fog of war. I've played numerous games where the computer suffered the effects of a surprise attack while I, with good reconnaissance suffered none.
- It has been proposed that Harder AI's get a combat bonus. I've not tested this yet though the test is easy enough.
Can you think of any other ways the AI might cheat?
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SemperFi2382
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 778
Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL USA
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Posted: Mar Thu 03, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject:
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Although I'm still waiting on my own copy. I think there might be another way for the AI to cheat. Though these are total assumptions.
Theory 1
In Advance Wars, you can clearly see the use of supplies by the AI and that, in fact, the AI does need to resupply. However...
- I know there are some games that use supply, but somehow the AI isn't affected by "lack thereof" (aka Supply Trucks with ammo or fuel are non-existant, but the AI Army keeps on rolling)
Theory 2
In Advance Wars, the AI is not hindered by the Fog of War, is this maybe because...
- Maybe this falls under the Fog of War, but what about the AI getting to see "farther"? Like your Unit A can only see 2 hexes, but the AI's very same Unit A can see 3 hexes.
- Though with this assumption the AI can "see" farther, does this mean that they might have extra range attacks? (Aka shoot farther)
Theory 3
We hardcore strategy gamers think too much.
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Guest
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Posted: Mar Thu 03, 2005 4:44 pm Post subject:
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wait a minute ..you dont even gave a copy of the game?
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MisterToad
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 29
Location: NorCal, USA
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Posted: Mar Thu 03, 2005 6:07 pm Post subject:
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I agree that the AI isn't peeking or spawning "hordes of the things".
So what then constitutes Easy AI, Medium AI and Hard AI, if it's not granted a production bonus or allowed to lift the FOW ? Simply the level of aggressiveness ? Too much aggression can be as bad as being overly passive. There must be something more to it.
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DeviousPENGUIN
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 54
Location: Pittsburgh PA
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Posted: Mar Thu 03, 2005 6:21 pm Post subject:
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Maybe it gets more organized on harder levels. Some of the ways it comes at you in easy mode are pathetic. I played one map and the AI basically threw it self onto my wall of armor backed up by SP's. I was playing as japan and the AI was china on the map with the peninsula. Maybe on hard level it would attempt to dismantle my position instead of charging headlong into it.
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JVGFanatic
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 275
Location: Portland (the westardly one)
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Posted: Mar Thu 03, 2005 8:27 pm Post subject:
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Anonymous wrote: |
wait a minute ..you dont even gave a copy of the game? |
Which is why Semper Fi was speaking in theory.
Besides that, I'm assuming he has browed the faq already.
Good thoughts Semper Fi, particulary that third one
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SemperFi2382
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 778
Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL USA
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Posted: Mar Fri 04, 2005 11:46 am Post subject:
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JVGFanatic wrote: |
Anonymous wrote: |
wait a minute ..you dont even gave a copy of the game? |
Which is why Semper Fi was speaking in theory.
Besides that, I'm assuming he has browed the faq already.
Good thoughts Semper Fi, particulary that third one
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Ha, beat me to the punch on the reply.
Yeah, I'm pretty much convinced that Theory 3 IS the most likely theory.
Now back to the topic: (Remember, this is all theoretical.)
- Organizational skills of the AI could very well be the deciding factor.
In certain RTS games (Yes, you can compare TB to RTS somewhat.), building a heavy defense can cause several responses:
A) The AI spends more time attacking it. This is seen most often in RTS games, which is heavily exploitable by the player. (Aka, Firebase)
B) The AI attempts to circumvent the defenses. As seen in Civilization. (This I have tested)
C) The AI exploits the weakest link. Seen also in Civilization and Advance Wars. (Picks off the smallest stack, weakest unit or undefended cities.
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DoubleTap
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 76
Location: Manhattan
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Posted: Mar Fri 04, 2005 11:55 am Post subject:
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There have been times where the results of a computer attack or counter attack have been SO inconsistant with the firepower/hit %/endurance numbers, I have been tempted to accuse the computer of cheating by skewing the percentages. Alas, I think it's just the fortunes of war.
Semper Fi, I agree with your thoughts about the AI. In the Border Incident mission (perhaps the perfect mission to test any defensive theory), the computer kept on trying to rush infantry across the border on the west side of the map, in spite of the fact that I was pounding them with three ATACs and a Humvee forward observer. It was fairly obvious that they couldn't see the ATACs, and were just kind of trying to keep me busy so they could launch their main attack from the east.
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snowzone
Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 2
Location: kingston, on. canada
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Posted: Mar Sun 06, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Does Dai Senryaku VII Cheat
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JVGFanatic wrote: |
- It was proposed that units cost less for the AI to build than they do for the player to build. This has been proven (to the best of my abilities) untrue.
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i love wargames, but i'm not all that great at strategy. didn't stop me from picking up this game. BUT...
while playing the easiest level in the first map in free play mode, i gave my self all the money/fuel i could AND i reduced russia to 0 for both (this is my third game)
i'm about 50 turns into the game i'm down to 4k or so for money, russia has at last check under 100, both of us have plenty of fuel. we both have the same amount of captures...i take out his supply trucks/infantry whenever i see them.
and i don't think i'm going to win.
i SHOULD have won this game by now. just through the sheer number of units i'm able to produce. i've probably sent 15 b2 bombers, 15 thunderbolts, and and even number of paladins and abrams. and other various units...
all of this without reading the faq of course
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SemperFi2382
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 778
Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL USA
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Posted: Mar Mon 07, 2005 7:22 am Post subject:
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Well, I got my copy of the game. Hence my absence here yesterday lol. I did the tutorial and had an 8+ hour free play with my friend vs 2 CPUs.
I plan on running some tests to test out various theories I have. I'm going to have one player be allied so I can "spy" on the CPU every turn to test reactions and the like.
I'll post the results back once I get them. However, I won't be able to start testing for a few more days. (I want more time on it first lol)
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"The Object is not to die for your country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his." - General Patton
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