|
Kemco Games
Kemco Games Forums
|
SOVIET AIRPOWER - UNDERPOWERED?
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
ElricJC
Guest
|
Posted: Oct Wed 05, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject: Air Power
|
|
|
DanielRuoss has a good point - While U.S. and Russian pilots have not faced off personally since Korea, those who were trained by and used their equipment have, and both in the air and on the land, the Israelis were dealing major spankage, to put it in layman's terms .
The Russians since Zhukov in particular have been about Mass and less about Economy of Force. The reason is simple... there are a lot of god damn Russians, especially when Russia led the U.S.S.R and had their satellites to draw on. Zhukov was a good general, but frankly he won more by throwing lots of bodies at the enemy than he did by excellent maneuver. His logistics were good though.
The Russians could not win with this tactic alone, though, and combined that Victory by Attrition strategy with military equipment built to match the strategy - rugged, hard wearing, inexpensive equipment they could afford to lose. As Daniel mentioned, it wasn't until the advents of the MiG-29 and Su-27 that this idea began to change. Right now on the ground the Russians are considering the adoption of the NATO style 120mm gun, replacing their older 125s, which despite being bigger in the bore and of equal or greater length to western weapons, they are considered inferior due to poor materials and construction. Their air units tend to follow suit - they are less sophisticated but more rugged, requiring less maintenance in general. But as mentioned before, this is beginning to change.
But I stand by my statement that Russian air units have not been able to match U.S. air units tit-for-tat. In most cases when a nation has some money to spare, they buy American for air. When you're poor, its Russian, and now mostly Chinese, or for some other powers particularly during the 60's, it was the French. [Trivia note, before the 1990's the Mirage III was the most prolific fighter variety in the world. The Israeli Kfir is based on a Mirage III variant in this game.].
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
SemperFi2382
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 778
Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL USA
|
Posted: Oct Wed 05, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Air Power
|
|
|
ElricJC wrote: |
As Daniel mentioned, it wasn't until the advents of the MiG-29 and Su-27 that this idea began to change. |
Right, but those 2 aircraft alone are equal, if not superior to the vast majority of aircraft in the game. Granted the US may have the F/A-22s, the rest are on par with the Flankers. It is true though that most of the older Russian Aircraft are not nearly a match for the US's generational equivalent.
ElricJC wrote: |
But I stand by my statement that Russian air units have not been able to match U.S. air units tit-for-tat. In most cases when a nation has some money to spare, they buy American for air. When you're poor, its Russian, and now mostly Chinese, or for some other powers particularly during the 60's, it was the French. [Trivia note, before the 1990's the Mirage III was the most prolific fighter variety in the world. The Israeli Kfir is based on a Mirage III variant in this game.]. |
Lol, you know that is funny though if you think about it. Though I'm sure that there is more to the sale of our aircraft to other nations than what meets the eye. Namely, look at Saudi Arabia and Israel and our relationship with them. Taiwan and South Korea is a matter strategic value. I'm sure I'm missing a few other key nations, but money isn't the only reason we export more of our aircraft.
_________________
"The Object is not to die for your country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his." - General Patton
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
katana
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
|
Posted: Oct Wed 05, 2005 8:10 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
what about the cope india 2004 when the US lost repeatively in combat simulations?
they said su-30mki outmaneuver the f-15 and f-18.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
SemperFi2382
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 778
Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL USA
|
Posted: Oct Wed 05, 2005 8:38 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
katana wrote: |
what about the cope india 2004 when the US lost repeatively in combat simulations?
they said su-30mki outmaneuver the f-15 and f-18. |
Hmm, I never heard about the US losing repeatedly, however I don't follow international wargames very often. Not to mention that they put up their best pilots and we didn't exactly put our best up there. It's very skewed on many occasions due to the fact that the situations are generally pre-set and so you pretty much know when and where the enemy is coming from.
Point and case, the US Marines have done multiple exercises with the US Air Force in which we didn't attack from where we were supposed to and thus won an otherwise easy slaughter by the USAF.
However, international wargames aren't exactly something you can break the rules just to make the other side eat crow. Then again, in real life a war isn't going to happen the way you practice it. You can drill tactics and all sorts of things, but you can't expect a commander to do things by the book if that is going to get his men (and women) killed.
Not trying to say that the Flankers aren't more maneuverable, just wargames aren't the means that one can fully judge the combat effectiveness of one aircraft vs another in an objective manner.
_________________
"The Object is not to die for your country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his." - General Patton
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
katana
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
|
Posted: Oct Wed 05, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000976.html
heres the link.
"indian flyboys in low-tech Russian and French jets defeated American F-15C pilots more than 90 percent of the time."
USAF were outnumbered by 10 or 12 to 4. thats maybe why and i heard there were no AWACS assisting the F-15s.
IAF use Mirage-2000 (french) Mig-27, Mig-29, even the Mig-21 Bison and SU-30K.
even though they were outnumber f-15 suppose to win like iserals did when they were outnumbered.
yeah i know its just wargame but it surprise me how well IAF perform.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
DoubleTap
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 76
Location: Manhattan
|
Posted: Oct Thu 06, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
I recall reading that at the end of the Cold War, it turned out that the Soviets were something like 25 years behind the Western Democracies in advanced metallurgy. Tough to make a decent modern fighter plane without titanium and advanced materials.
Also, don't we get about one tragic crash of a Flanker about once every 2 years or so at European airshows? Or does it just seem that way?
_________________
"If an evil is minor, resist it nonetheless. If a good deed is trifling, perform it all the same." -Liu Bei
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
SemperFi2382
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 778
Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL USA
|
Posted: Oct Thu 06, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
DoubleTap wrote: |
I recall reading that at the end of the Cold War, it turned out that the Soviets were something like 25 years behind the Western Democracies in advanced metallurgy. Tough to make a decent modern fighter plane without titanium and advanced materials. |
Perhaps, but lighter doesn't always mean better. Although it's safe to assume that avionics and engine power are also lagging on most of the older airframes the Soviets were fielding.
DoubleTap wrote: |
Also, don't we get about one tragic crash of a Flanker about once every 2 years or so at European airshows? Or does it just seem that way? |
I think it just seems that way, but those aren't the only crashes that are at airshows. I've seen a few nasty crashes from other airframes as well. The Flankers seem to be more documented though. Perhaps because of the agility of the aircraft that they are bigger crowd pleasers and thus in more shows.
As a side note, there is also a lot of pilots that think they can pull off certain maneuvers that are simply beyond their skill or flying style. Being in front of a crowd showing off can make you stupid too.
_________________
"The Object is not to die for your country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his." - General Patton
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
katana
Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
|
Posted: Oct Thu 06, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Quote: |
As a side note, there is also a lot of pilots that think they can pull off certain maneuvers that are simply beyond their skill or flying style. Being in front of a crowd showing off can make you stupid too. |
lol thats what i do on lock on but thats a pc game. i mostly crash plus i started playing this game.
im still learning all the maneuvers from the site.
http://members.tripod.com/~F15EEagle/manu.html
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
SemperFi2382
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 778
Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL USA
|
Posted: Oct Fri 07, 2005 10:52 am Post subject:
|
|
|
katana wrote: |
Quote: |
As a side note, there is also a lot of pilots that think they can pull off certain maneuvers that are simply beyond their skill or flying style. Being in front of a crowd showing off can make you stupid too. |
lol thats what i do on lock on but thats a pc game. i mostly crash plus i started playing this game.
im still learning all the maneuvers from the site.
http://members.tripod.com/~F15EEagle/manu.html
|
Generally, I love pulling off the Immelman and Split S while playing combat flight sims. It's quick and dirty, but also one of the simplest maneuvers to pull off assuming you know how to use throttle and are comfortable flying inverted.
Jinking is one of the more important ones as it can save your life when most of your attackers cards are on the table. Combine this with The Scissors and suddenly you've turned the table and just saved your own bacon.
However, before I became good at flight sims, I crashed often from low-altitude when pulling off various maneuvers, stalled and crashed and in some cases collided with my attacker/defender while engaged because I was spending more time watching the maneuver and not my opponent and my gauges.
_________________
"The Object is not to die for your country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his." - General Patton
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
irashunal
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 11
|
Posted: Oct Sun 09, 2005 7:32 am Post subject: irashunal
|
|
|
I have been bogged down with work projects for several weeks now and, alas, i have been buried to where i needed a periscope to even see the outside world! Obsolete parts suck.
I am glad to see that my question has gotten me so much information. I am fascinated by the military - and support any application thereof in the real world if it makes any type of strategic sense to our nation. Maybe i am a warmonger but, whatever.
As for the original subject matter: batch assault groups of MiGs are rather effective, i admit, but i tend to shy away from creating wolfpacks because of the 50 unit limit. But i realize that the limit prevents the command-and-conquer-esque ubertank battalion mode of play. I hated that - 30 friggin tanks on a blitzkrieg in RTS!!! AARGH!
I do like the British VTOL and their carriers though. I've been playing around with them lately - the few hours a week i get to play now. If there's water on the map there's a pair of carriers out there -those VTOLs are quite handy following my frontline advance all the way to payday.
_________________
If at first U don't succeed, goto a higher caliber.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
SemperFi2382
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 778
Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL USA
|
Posted: Oct Sun 09, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: Re: irashunal
|
|
|
irashunal wrote: |
I do like the British VTOL and their carriers though. I've been playing around with them lately - the few hours a week i get to play now. If there's water on the map there's a pair of carriers out there -those VTOLs are quite handy following my frontline advance all the way to payday. |
Don't forget the US Marines have got VTOL and a carrier that can match the Brits too.
_________________
"The Object is not to die for your country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his." - General Patton
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
ElricJC
Guest
|
Posted: Oct Sun 09, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject: Brits and VTOL
|
|
|
The thing is, the British Invincible has a greater air load capacity than compared to the Wasp, and it is a bit cheaper. The British Harriers also come in two major flavors - Air attack and Ground attack. Then they have the F-35, which I usually use as an AshW plane since it carries a pair of Harpoon missiles and is quite fast. The Brits can construct a rather inexpensive sea assault force. In one scenario I had 3 Invincibles, with about 4 Air Harriers, 6 Ground attackers, and 2 F-35s for ship killing, each with 3 transport helis with Spec. Forces. This mobile force could operate in hostile territory for some time before being forced to return to a friendly port. I followed them along with a supply ship, two frigates, and a Type 45 Destroyer, with an overflying Tornado Recon jet and a fuel tanker. Later I added a contingent of Jaguar attack jets for extra ground-poundy goodness and a couple of Eurofighters loaded for bear. I swept the Americans from the sea and soon crushed the Russians with a little more difficulty because of their good defensive position. It was the Wave Rush scenario I believe, but I replaced the French with the British in this case.
I just wish the Invincible had more, and better, weapons. Without close protection they are very vulnerable.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
SemperFi2382
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 778
Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL USA
|
Posted: Oct Mon 10, 2005 6:09 am Post subject:
|
|
|
Ah, see you use a different naval strategy than I do. I generally have a carrier following my Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) consisting of a Wasp and a San Antonio. That way, my Harriers are all AtG configs to support my Amphibious Landing while the Carrier is providing, Recon, Jamming and AtA cover. My escort ships are tasked to anti naval warfare as I usually never have any problems with the AI on the high seas.
_________________
"The Object is not to die for your country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his." - General Patton
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
ElricJC
Guest
|
Posted: Oct Mon 10, 2005 6:59 am Post subject: Naval Strategy
|
|
|
Quote: |
Ah, see you use a different naval strategy than I do. I generally have a carrier following my Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) consisting of a Wasp and a San Antonio. That way, my Harriers are all AtG configs to support my Amphibious Landing while the Carrier is providing, Recon, Jamming and AtA cover. My escort ships are tasked to anti naval warfare as I usually never have any problems with the AI on the high seas. |
One thing I learned was to always have a destroyer along and a couple of ship killers - the enemy always seems to have ONE (just one ) destroyer or crusier and they can really ruin my day. Also the Type 45 is great for AA purposes.
I've used a strat like you have before, but I don't tend to utilize amphib landings much against enemy bases since I cannot usually bring enough mass to bear to push all the defenders away. If I make a landing its usually only after a HEAVY air strike to clear the beach (3 harriers usually are not enough to do this).
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
SemperFi2382
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 778
Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL USA
|
Posted: Oct Mon 10, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Naval Strategy
|
|
|
ElricJC wrote: |
I've used a strat like you have before, but I don't tend to utilize amphib landings much against enemy bases since I cannot usually bring enough mass to bear to push all the defenders away. If I make a landing its usually only after a HEAVY air strike to clear the beach (3 harriers usually are not enough to do this). |
Well, I think it's partially because I use the tactic as the standard template for a US Marine landing and partially because my amphibious assaults generally have a hammer and anvil effect going on as well. Generally, the landing being the hammer unless I get into a really nice tactical position before the enemy gets too dug in.
_________________
"The Object is not to die for your country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his." - General Patton
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|