Kemco Games

DanielRuoss · Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 103 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL

Just wanted to bump this back to front since I know there are some new people who may not have seen this.

A quick question. Did those who voted for North Korea vote for them because of the units or because of recent tension between the USA and NK?

ElricJC · Guest

Frankly, I'd kinda like to see some Swedish units. I don't think I'd want Sweden as an optional player nation since they really don't do a whole lot militarily, but they have some strange military hardware, such as the 'S' Tank, and the various original SAAB produced aircraft such as the Viggen and Drachen. The Swdes have been very original with their indigenous designs but haven't seen much in the way of the export market, which is unfortunate.

DanielRuoss · Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 103 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL

They are making a push to export the JAS 39 Gripen overseas. So far it has been acquired by South Africa, Hungary and Czech Republic. Also, the S-tank is being replaced by the German Leopard 2 as the Strv-122.

ElricJC · Guest

SemperFi2382 · Posted: Oct Thu 13, 2005 3:59 pm Post subject:

DanielRuoss · Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 103 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL

The Eurofighter costs have soared ridiculously since that program started. The Swedes offer the Gripen as a much cheaper alternative to nations in their situation. Due to their neutrality they have to do it on their own and get more out of less. I'm glad they do it because they have a history of making great aircraft like the Draken and Viggen, which you mentioned.

SemperFi2382 · Posted: Oct Thu 13, 2005 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Cool

DanielRuoss · Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 103 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL

Don't get me started on the Pepsi v. Coke debate...... LOL Twisted Evil

ElricJC · Guest

DanielRuoss · Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 103 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL

I couldn't agree more. Look at all of the people who argued against the F-14, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, etc. They also said the M1 Abrams was too expensive and that older armor would do fine. Well, when it came to Operation Desert Storm our qualitative superiority in the sea, air, and land gave us a quick, low casualty victory. That is priceless. Ask any of the guys whose tanks got slammed by a couple 125mm shells whether they would trade an Abrams for an older M60? People who argue against the F/A-22 say it doesn't fit into our current war fighting. They say it's way too expensive for a bomb hauler when our older aircraft do that just fine. That may be true. Al-Qaida doesn't have MiGs or Sukhois to threaten air superiority. But God forbid we ever end up fighting the Chinese we'll wish we had the F/A-22 because we'll certainly need it's capabilities in order to shoot down the droves of aircraft they would throw at us. Some people seem to forget the real purpose of weapons isn't for what you CAN think of but for what you CAN'T think of. I think the future will justify the F/A-22s cost. I'd rather have it and not need it then be stuck needing it and not having it.

ElricJC · Guest

Well said Daniel, well said.

Quality does not always beat quantity, but I'd rather have 10 raptors than a hundred J-8 Finbacks. The Germans in WWII had the superior equipment, especially in armor and ground weapons, but they suffered because of over complexity. Had they been able to produce some of their "Wunder Waffen" weapons such as the Panther II, the E-50, the HO 229, or the Tank Fighter (pronounced Tonk) in any sort of reasonable numbers, things could have been much different. The weapons alone won't do it, but when you suffer a numerical inferiority (Uh, us compared to China... yeah, I don't think I need my calculator to figure out that China has more people than us), then we need a technology superiority, not a parity.

And as a military historian I am expected to look beyond my own borders and time to see what other nations and groups are, have been, and will be doing in order to learn what must be done here. Israel is a perfect example. Given their numerical inferiroity to, well, everyone in the region, they had to produce weapons and vehicles appropriate to their situation. Enter the Merkava tank series. They aren't as fast as ours (although reportedly their latest Mk. 4, which appears in this game, matches the speed of the Abrams, or gets close, and might even surpass the Challenger 2), but they are VERY well armored, and their armor is sloped to such a degree that the armor they have is improved in cross section (a 1 inch steel plated angled inward at 60 degrees has the cross section of an armor plate standing at 90 degress that is twice as thick. Sloping = Good, but less internal space). Their tanks are made so that they can destroy any tank they are expected to be thrown up against while offering the maximum comfort and protection to their tank crews. Their tanks also offer plentiful close-contact weapons, sometimes mounting up to three pintle mounted machine guns for close defense, as well as having the ubiquitous self-loading 60mm mortar. The Israelis designed what may be the best tank in the world for the modern era of warfare, and lord knows they've gotten the experience.

Ignoring important lessons like this ultimately leads to unpreparedness. The same thing happened in WWI when the Europeans chose not to learn the lessons of the American Civil War - namely, how to conduct trench warfare and, more importantly, how to circumvent it. But the Europeans believed the American Civil War was a war "Fought by amateurs generals and amateur soldiers", and thus was not worthy of notice. Never mind that fact that most of the top-ranking generals on both sides were West Point trained combat engineers and had true on fighting experience in the Mexican War, which was also the sight of the first and most successful combined services operation between the Army and the Navy. General Winfield Scott landed 14,000 troops with full horses and supplies without losing a single man or animal in low slung amphibious landing ships very much akin to later boats. Churchill could have a learned a thing or two from Scott when he decided on his Galipoli mission in WWI.

As I said, complacency, and ignorance, are some of the most dangerous things out there. The F/A-22 is an unreasonable cost? We'll see about that.

DanielRuoss · Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 103 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL

Military history is rife with examples of complacency and lack of forward thinking. You're right about the Germans trapping themselves in high technology. While their acheivements were stunning what they needed was numbers and they realized it too late. Thankfully. There is a lesson for us.. Technology is only good in a military sense if it's able to used in a quantity sufficient to achive results.

I'm a huge fan of the Israelis. They are the "MacGuyver" of the middle east. They still have usable Shermans (heavily modified) in reserve! The Merkava series are amazing tanks. With a small army the Israeli emphasis is on survivability for the crew. For those who know don't much about it I recommend you read up on it. It's very innovative. Besides what ElricJC mentioned, the engine is located in front to provide more crew protection and the tank actually has a rear opening hatch to allow it to carry extra soldiers in dire circumstances.